sort of competitive in international history. i teach introductory course on the making of the modern world, which is a world history course that is one of my african-american history colleagues that starts in the 18th-century and goes to the present. and then i teach from the graduate students and my work is in the history of the 19th century broadly get the history of the american empire that i've been interested in that is in the history of the 19th century. and it's a lot about the west, a new area of interest to the estimate we have been talking with professor hahn about his recent book the political world of slavery and freedom. he is also the pulitzer winner for his 2004 look the nation under our feet. professor speed, thank you for your time today. >> thank you for having me. >> is there a nonfiction author or what you would like to see teacher on booktv?

send an e-mail at book tv at mix c-span.org or twitter of kong/book tv. now one book tv, sarah gordon talks about religious cases that have transformed the wall in country in the limited protection to the constitution. this interview part of booktv college ceres was recorded at the university of pennsylvania in philadelphia. it's about 20 minutes. university of pennsylvania professor the spirit of law is the most recent book what you mean when you talk about the old constitutional world. estimate for most of the nation's history it was the states rather than the federal government that controlled access to more than just worship, the right of religious organizations and so on and in

the early decades of the 20th century that began to shift as the supreme court applied the national constitution a stubble should and the exercise clause of the first amendment against the states, centralizing the debate about religion. still give the states have the control we have it written into the constitution, freedom of religion. >> we did indeed. but the first amendment begins congress shall enact noval only address to the national government. >> were there restrictions by different states on religion? >> yes there were to read several states had religious and solutions. most states limited the amount of property and religious organizations, some tax religious property, others they and the give and group practices and thinking for example the eventually various states in the southwest, banning polygamy for

example. >> it can to massachusetts, talk about messages or pennsylvania. we are here in pennsylvania as a case study of states regulating religion. >> sure. pennsylvanians.org sable had an active blasphemy law we that we would now think of as starkly as unconstitutional. in the last case that was brought to the last criminal prosecution under the law was actually blocked in the early 1970's, kind of bye accident against someone who had a slave in his window saying something like wanted radical carpenter speaks to crowds preaching peace, and of course this person met jesus but someone walking past thought of it as blasphemous and complained. the american civil liberties union got involved pretty quickly and the prosecution was dropped. four recently, a film company

owner tried to name his company might choose harold productions and was denied under, denied the incorporation under the states in the corporation law because it was a blasphemous title for the company that was dismissed. sec'y you think it started to change in the early 20th century? >> ready for several different reasons. one, especially with the growth of the federal government in the new deal era and the other was the embrace of migration and parallel some that immigration began to seize a little bit after the restrictive immigration act of the early 20th century into the new deal forced so many people on to the

move and looking for work have a much greater contact with government and the extension of government power really highlighted the friction between a bigger government and the lives so there was a lot of tension. sinecure right about the salvation army to read what is about the role role of the salvation army and changing the role in the u.s.. islamic the salvation army which many people don't realize is an evangelical religious group, not just a group that rings bells outside of department stores in the christmas season it's what they call the cathedral of the open air and would go into areas especially impoverished areas would have parades' and make lots of malaise the symbols

trying to attract especially the urban poor back into the religious life. this came against the requirements of many cities that any trade would be permitted, for exhibit, and in the salvation army they made it a practice not to apply and to be arrested often playing their instruments on the way into the cell and challenging them as antireligious, and they won a lot of them. they also lost a lot of them so they kind of destabilized the law in the states by challenging these restrictions. they never really needed to the supreme court of the united states the because the states were still in howard. >> professor gordon, when did the first major religious case come before the supreme court? >> the cases from the federal territory had come in the 19th century and questions of

polygamy and that some of the state's and the major cases made it to the court in the late 1930's and early 1940's, really that new deal era and they tended not to be so much the salvation army of the jehovah's witness who also caused a lot of troubles. >> what was one of those cases? walk us through. >> well a very interesting case called cantwell against connecticut's involved a group of what this is that had gone into a catholic neighborhood in new haven on a sunday morning and begin planning anticatholic records on a portable photographs and distributing literature and they were a arrested for disturbing the peace if preaching without a permit and they appealed their case all the way to the supreme court which said the because conn said individual cities

administrators will decide what a valid program was for the religious organizations and would allow them or not onto the streets and they applied for the first time this time the free exercise clause against the state of connecticut and overturn the law that allowed the city officials as they saw fit. >> and did that lead to any nationwide movement or was it a well-publicized case? >> it was a relatively well publicized case, a really big movement came when the jehovah's witnesses again challenged law requiring school children to salute the flag every morning to say the pledge of allegiance and the first thing when they got to the supreme court in 1940 they

lost in a big case. they got a lot of attention. and after that violence broke out against the witness is all across the country the supreme court changed its mind and said you know, we need be interested in patriotism and national unity but not by beating of schoolchildren. >> and so today are school children because most classes begin with a pledge of allegiance if the child wants to sit during that can a child sit? >> indeed they are constitutionally protected in their right not to have to say the pledge of allegiance, yes. >> the spirit of law, tim and beverley, who are they. >> kimmage and beverley are best known as they should be. they actually were involved in the movements from the 1960's

through the very 1990's their part of a resurgent a viticulture and they like so many others migrated to california set up - churches and educational institutions and eventually became deeply involved in politics. beverley, who is a particular interest of - book founded a group called concerned women for america who still claims to be the largest women's political organizational in the united states and she based her organization on five spiritual principles in the bible the family and the patriotism the sanctity of marriage and safety of life and religious parents should have more control for example and what they're taught in school are doing that the

equal rights amendment for the wedding was a violation of the fundamental orders of things and winning many of these cases. >> did you interview her for your bookracks. >> she is still in seclusion. she retired about almost 15 years ago and lives in california again. >> somebody would have liked to talk to? >> i would very much like to talk to her, and one of the things i think is really important is that an organization like hers which was so involved, so foundational to the conservative women political activism in the papers are not deposited anywhere. they are not available to be read. other women, if phillys schlaffley and the like beverley

and the concerned women for america desert substantially more attention for prosperity should deposit the papers and some were more scholars. >> sarah gordon is a professor of law and history here at the university of pennsylvania. it is his recent book the spirit of law religious voices and constitution in modern america. harvard university press. she's also the author of the mormon question, and you have referred to polygamy a couple of times in our short discussion here. was that the issue about the mormons that got under people's skin? >> it was the most prominent one. if you'd say questions of access to public places for the religious speech is life as a

key to the 20th century in the 19th century there are really big questions would lawrence be allowed to redefine marriage to themselves and control the legal system enough so that polygamy would be for gilchrest and protected as a valid form of marriage by the secular legal system, not just by the church itself? >> the gay marriage debate today? >> there have been substantial parallels. one of the key issues for the mormon apologists as well as opponents was the question of statehood for utah. it became pretty clear early on in american history that the states had substantial control over marriage within their borders and as we are seeing

very far out in the marriage equality debate today. in utah pushed again and again for statehood and was delayed again and again in large part because of this question of polygamy. the federal government have much more control over the territorial governments than it did or does over the state government. so, yes, there is a big issue about how much control the state has over marriage. was public any foundational in lessening that control at the time and that the date was no it wasn't, it was about keeping utah out of the state would come in and unless we see the transfer of the supreme court opinion which may happen coming especially from the california cases, it is still within the state control.

>> sarah gordon you have an upcoming book called the place of faith. where did you get interested in the subject of law and religion? >> redican deeply interested when i was thinking about applying to graduate school, but i was torn. it i want to go to the seminary or law school? and for reasons my family wanted to relocate to connecticut i went up in law school rather than in a seminary and i was delighted when i discovered it like to do joint degree with the school at yale and i had been trading off one interest against the other and discovered thanks to the availability of interdisciplinary trading that i could actually confine my interests and so i started a new and around 1982 to date i in my 30th year working in this field

and by myself, still fascinated, still intrigued and dedicated to thinking deeply about the relationship between law and religion. >> where was this picture on the cover of the spirit of the law? >> this is outside the united states supreme court and was taken on the david challenge to the pledge of allegiance not a requirement that students say it that the insertion of the words under god into the pledge of allegiance which happens naturally in the 1950's in the part of the cold war pushed back against the communist atheism, and this is of a small denomination actually from new york where they were playing for the protection of the public acknowledgment of god and outside of the new supreme court

on the day that the case was argued, and behind her you can see the two guards standing and looking far less dramatic than she does. i don't know if you can see that she is actually weeping as she prays it's a very dynamic picture. i was thrilled to see it on the cover. >> professor gordon, some of the cases we hear about today include hay to the scenes, the ten commandments. is there a national standard yet on the nativity scenes where they can be displayed? >> i think sometimes they disagree with each other. the basic role seems to be that if it is just a crash or just the ten commandments, what violates the establishment clause? but if a nativity scene or the

ten commandments are combined with other things illustrating not just religious commitments for broad commitments of the american people then that they have a far better chance of surviving in the theater thing that does seem to happen is if they are in there for a long time and, if they are part of the historic architecture or a museum for example exhibit for the duty of the art as well as the message that is also probably okay. >> what, if any, supreme court case to you see, do you foresee coming? >> historians are reluctant to predict. one of the things we see happening across the country is still some especially in the major protestant denomination to

groups, methodist, episcopalians, presbyterians on and on down the line fighting with each other about the sanctity of things in the relationships further back but still bitter about the organization of women, and we see the litigation in every state and differing standards apply by different states as to whether a seceding group can take its property and move it or not. we have opinions from south carolina, california virginia, massachusetts, connecticut light can go down the line in the these are very high ticket items to made a lot of real estate involved that is word really tens of millions of dollars

each. the episcopal church for example had millions of dollars every year just on the lawyer fees, so these are difficult questions, and they are affecting very long standing the nominations across america. these are tough questions. >> sarah gordon is a professor of constitutional law and history at the university of pennsylvania in philadelphia and the author most recently of this book the spirit of the wall religious voices and the constitution in modern america. >> thank you so much. >> book tv is on facebook. like us to interact with guests and viewers can watch videos and get up-to-date information on the vince. facebook.com/booktv. book tv is here at the annual national press club author might. and joining us now is author

arun chaundhary who has written a book called stealing." what is your association with the obama campaign data administration? >> in 2008 on the campaign by was the first videographer which is something like to read the first two and a half years of the white house and the last cycle actually didn't work on the campaign for a week or at the white house. i'd worked in that new and strange world of the superpacs. >> talk about the campaign. how did you get hooked up with the president? >> there was an ad on craigslist that said that wasn't the case. was right place, right time to read a friend of mine was working at cnn as a documentary producer and that is a more normal path in the politics. as much as i was interested i was a filmmaker and all the first on anyone's list, so she knew that i was passionate in politics and wanted to get involved and then i just hit it off with a senator and a sort of traveling.

>> how long did you do it? was it 2474 while? >> you know, especially on the campaign it really felt like 24/7. i happened to be living in chicago, but i was there two or three days a month. so it was 24/7 but is scaled back on the white house because the president is someone who values things so a around dinnertime usually i could have a pretty reasonable chance that he would go off to the family stuff and i could do the same. >> who has all of the video? >> all the video is that the white house and it's interesting because it goes into the archives where none of it is allowed to be traced. the electrons say anything for the president has to be preserved for posterity. so every time dhaka president says a swear by accident or i get something out of focus it goes to the archive and will be available to the public after the end of the obama administration. >> what about the campaign video?

>> the dnc kept all this stuff from 2,000 then gave it back to the campaign when he was reignited but now the campaign is over where that footage goes is interesting. i am hoping that it is no need to the obama presidential library whenever that starts to take form, and i bet you that it will be. >> it's an first cameraman that arun chaundhary documents his experiences as the videographer for the president. my inspiration was the idea i wanted to explain how it happens. we do know the story of the cold war. we know the documents, we've seen the archives that describe the relationship between roosevelt and stalin and churchill and truman. we know the media and from our plan tough viewed we have written them. what i wanted to do is show from a different angle from the ground up what did it feel like

to be one of the people who were subjected to the system and how that people make choices in that system and how did they react and how did they behave? it's interesting one of the things that happened since 1989 is the region that we used to call eastern europe has become very differentiated. it is no longer these countries no longer even have anything in common except for the common memory of >> more to pulitzer prize winner book tv is a location that the u.s. naval academy in annapolis maryland where we are interviewing some professors who are also authors. we are now joined by richard ruth, a professor here at the naval academy. professor ruth, what do you teach?

>> i teach predominately sian history of why in pre-modern asian history. mostly i concentrate on thailand and vietnam. >> why is it important for students to the south asian history? >> it's very much engaged in that corner of the world we have many allies and partners that we are still working with come and many students at the naval officers southeast they are going to represent our interest there. so i think it's important for them to know south east asian history to be comfortable with someand to have knowledge of their history. >> well, professor ruth, one of our longtime allies is thailand, yet you have written a book called in buddhist company. thai soldiers in the vietnam wa did the military the vietnam war??o?g? >> was actually a close ally in the united states during the war.am people familiar with theg=o=o

circumstances of the war will only did thailand fights to the united states and the other forces, but thailand erved as the basis for many of the aircraft that were bombing missions over the trail come over south vietnam, and at the time we had built seven year basis and a port as well to effort ine the u.s.  the war and also many american soldiers went to bangkok and of time, so in terms of direct support and more peripheral support, thailand was close ally and an important part of the effort. >> did they have soldiers, did that country have soldiers in vietnam? >> absolutely, and that's what  concentrate on in the book. they sent 47,000 soldiers, have for combat and the others were to fight

in south viet nam as allies to the united states and the the air unit. definitely combat units fighting hillside the province working with working with the south vietnamese and other allies, the filipinos, south koreans. >> what about casualties? casualties 500 died in south viet nam whil fighting what recall the the south, and i think it is an important detail to focus on because those who don't know the history of the involvement tend to dismiss them as they sometimes use america's mercenaries because we paid for a lot of the military hardware and logistics and the troops also tend to focus the various thais engaged in

black-market schemes but the behind it is that they were fighting and they were dying for years thailand was sort of carrying out the war they saw as the war in south vietnam. so the casualties are something that we should keep in mind. >> professor ruth, thai-u.s. relations. thai has been an ally for a lon time yet participated in the and world war ii. >> absolutely. date back to the famous example of offering abraham lincoln war for the troubles of the american civil war. the 20th thais were always close u.s. allies and this was intensified it was disrupted

war. but then as the cold war pretty much comes in as u.s. ally, and it definitely a strong cold war terms of being an continent to the u.s. global strategy. >> why do you call late in buddhist company, where did tha come from? >> the soldiers that fought in south viet nam salles themselve as buddhist warriors that they their service of that some of this is an ideological and some of it is that they saw themselves as trying to hold communism as a kind of threat to their practic ligious values or religious traditions that they saw some ways under threat by communism and also with thailand and its

role as being the kind of of the buddhism in the as being the center of a very intent buddhist tradition. many other soldiers that fought before leaving took an oath in most sacred image in thailand now what we call th buddah. of them wore and emulate that became a kind of signature of them. especially when they came in the soldiers from other countries. they wore the small amulets neck almost as identifying symbols and they brought statutes with them and of rebuilt temples that had been abandoned in south vietnam because of the fighting and i think the service was informed buddhist ideals and the the notion of loving kindness o mercy while a lot of the veterans i talk to when i was doing my research often invoked

that mercy to describe why they were fighting and why they sympathized so much with the vietnamese people and why they protect them so even as i think about it, their attitude towards nature and war's effect on people, all of that had a kind a buddhist route to it, so up with the title i did want to focus on their own self-image as kind of a buddhist or your if that isn't too much of a contradiction. >> what role does the king play in thailand, and if he had said no, what thailand have helped i the vietnam war? >> it's a great question becaus plays an important part not in promoting thailand's war, but in the s blessing to the departing soldiers from the

discussions in the united states for the king of thailand in the middle of those discussions talking to johnson both in washington. but when they did start recruiting soldiers, the king made it clear that he supported venture, he did a farewell and sponsored a lot of the celebrations to mark the southps to vietnam. ct personal interest in the wellbeing and h the wounded soldiers in the hospitals when they came back. presided over the funeral them out these sponsored temples so from the jury beginning the king of ved in thiss and supporting it as to say blessing or forward, i don't know, but pretty much like -- i gine without his support such a thing taking place. >> currently what kind of

relationship does the u.s. military have with the thai military? >> they still have a close relationship of the royal thai or me. something that haven't changed since the vietnam war month. annual regular exercises with other regional armies. they hold them every year in in thailand. d many of those high officers trained in the united states an context with the american counterparts here. ged from the war.am there was a brief thai-u.s. relations at the conclusion, bu it was momentary. most of the time we had a close relationship with thailand. >> why is this important to kno nvolvement in the war? >> there was a couple of reasons. the head of the third largest

in south vietnam for many of the years that the war was the united south korea. as a direct threat to themselves. regional power in war.l they didn't necessarily see thi as america's war but something that directly affected them, an it did. concentrate on south vietnam, but a lot of the fighting was going on and many that foughtrs in south viet nam also did fighting in laos against the laotian communists, so if you cannot get a full view of the vietnam war without reading some of the regional perspectives i think at times not only privilege and the of almost focus on an exclusively america focus of the vietnam